Vipassana Meditation And the Laws of Nature

An Interview with S.N. Goenka by Alan AtKission

Introduction: I can't tell you anything about what Vipassana meditation feels like, because I've never done it. But while definitions are tricky, what we call "spirituality" - the reaching of human awareness and conduct toward "that truth which passeth all understanding" - seems basic to meeting the enormous challenges of our times.

Which is why I accepted an invitation to interview S.N. Goenka during his 1992 visit to the Seattle area, where I was living at the time. Goenka - a leading teacher of the ancient Vipassana meditation technique - is not spiritual "leader" in the sense on usually means by the term, for he has no "followers." He would likely prefer to be described as a scientist who researches the relationship of mind, body, and matter via insight meditation, and teaches others how to do the same - directly, for themselves.

A former wealthy industrialist, born in Burma to parents of Indian descent, Goenka turned to Vipassana (which means "insight, " as in "seeing into reality as it is" ) when nothing else could alleviate his severe migraine headaches. He was introduced to the practice - reputed to be the method of meditation originally taught by the Buddha, though Vipassana itself is not a sectarian movement - by senior Burmese government official and meditation master, Sayagyi U Ba Khin.

Goenka became a devoted practitioner of Vipassana, and in 1969, having given up his businesses in Burma, he moved to India to being teaching the technique in the land where it originated.

Two decades later, there are Vipassana meditation centers throughout the world, and they attract people from all faiths.

Many things seem to distinguish Vipassana (as taught by Goenka) from other meditation techniques, including its insistence on receiving and initial ten-day training directly from a qualified teacher.

But more importantly, in an era when too many priests and gurus have been accused of sexual or financial misconduct, the Goenka-led Vipassana network seems beyond reproach. As Goenka explains below, no one is allowed to pay for training in Vipassana, and no teacher is permitted to earn money from teaching. The expenses of those who take the training courses are covered by donations of time and money from students who came before them and want to help spread the benefit of the practice.

The following is condensed from a lengthy interview conducted at the Northwest Vipassana Center in Onalaska, Washington, in the summer of 1991.

--Alan Atkisson

Question: Many people today are embracing the idea that truths are multiple - that there are many different kinds of truth, that truth is something created by humans and that there is no one ultimate truth. Yet Vipassana, as I understand it, seems to point toward and understanding of truth as something absolute. From the perspective of Vipassana, what is truth?

Goenkaji: You are quite correct when you say that, generally, human beings have created truth. Different people have different views. Human beings are intellectual beings, and at the level of intellect - reasoning, logic - someone will say, "Perhaps this is so. It appears to be so. This seems logical." Someone else will say, "No, this is not logical, that is logical." All those perceptions are at the intellectual level, and the intellect has its own limitation - it differs from person to person.

But there are basic laws of the nature: for example, fire burns. What does this have to do with intellect? It is simply the truth. If you put your hand in the fire, it burns. If it does not burn, it is not fire, though it may be something else. This is the law of nature, which can be experienced by one and all. It is not somebody's intellectual game - it is truth.

Vipassana meditation works with the actual truth, which can be experienced by one and all. Vipassana is not an intellectual game. It is also not an emotional or devotional game. This is another kind of truth that human beings create: "I have great devotion in Buddha, so whatever Buddha says is the truth. " "I have great devotion for Jesus Christ, " and I will say, "Whatever Jesus said is truth. " These are devotional games and they also vary from person to person.

So truths which are based on devotion, or truths which are based on intellect, will always differ. They cannot be the same. But truth based on actual experience will remain the same.

Vipassana gives importance to the actual experience. The truth experienced by each individual is the truth for that person.

Now there are levels of experience, one may not be able to experience a particular truth now. But as one goes deeper inside - experimenting, experimenting, and starts experiencing subtler things, then everyone will experience the same subtle reality at the deeper level. It is not that only a particular gifted person will experience it - the law of nature is the same law for everybody.

Anybody who puts a hand in fire gets burned. Fire won't discriminate for a Hindu or a Muslim or a Christian or a Jew. The defilements of the mind act the same way: if you generate anger, hatred, ill will, animosity, passion, fear, ego, worry, anxiety - any impurity in the mind - it will make you miserable, it will make everyone miserable. The result is the same for an Indian or a Russian, a European or an American. The law of the nature does not discriminate, does not favor. This is truth, truth eternal - for everybody, all the time, past, present and future.

Similarly, if the mind is free from these defilements - if one does not generate anger and the mind is free from negativity, if the mind is pure - one will notice that the mind becomes full of love, full of compassion and goodwill. These good qualities arise naturally in a pure mind. And when these wholesome qualities are in the mind, one naturally feels very peaceful, very harmonious. Again, this is a law of nature. Whether you are a Muslim or a hindu or a Christian, makes no difference, white or black or yellow, makes no difference.

Purity of the mind makes us feel very happy, peaceful and harmonious. We may belong to any community, any religion, any sect or none at all. Vipassana is beyond all religion, any sect or none at all. Vipassana is beyond all religions, beyond all sects, beyond all beliefs, beyond all dogmas or cults. It is a pure science of mind and matter - of how they interact, how they keep on influencing and being influenced by each other. This reality is not be accepted at the intellectual level, not to be accepted at the devotional level; it has to be experienced by each other. This reality is not to be accepted at the intellectual level, not to be accepted at the devotional level; it has to be experienced by each individual.

Suppose I have never experienced the burning of fire. I may have understood it intellectually because others have said, "if you put your hand in fire, it will burn. " But once I have actually put my hand on a fire, and I find that it burns, naturally I will keep my hand away from fire afterwards. In the same way, if we understand intellectually that all these negativities make us unhappy, this is an intellectual understanding. But when you go deep inside, you can experience this truth for yourself: " Look, anger has arisen, and I have become so agitated. Passion has arisen, I have become so agitated. When any impurity arises, I become so agitated, so irritated, so miserable. " You are experiencing it. And when you experience it directly, the next time you will be more careful not to generate such negativity: "Look, this is like fire. If I generate anger, it burns.

This is not a sermon, there is no a devotion involved: it is a fact, a hard fact of the life. If you defile your mind nature, the law of nature starts punishing you then and there. It won't wait until after death and take you to hell. You suffer the pangs of hell now. You become so miserable. Similarly if you keep your mind pure - full of love, compassion and goodwill---it starts giving the reward here and now. Look, your mind is pure, no negativity: you feel so peaceful, so happy. So simple.

That's all Vipassana is, just following the law of nature. And by practicing, practicing; experiencing, experiencing, one starts changing the behavior pattern of the mind.

To come out of misery and live a happy life - everyone wants this, but one doesn't know how to do it. By the practice of Vipassana you go to the depth of your mind - where the actual misery starts because of these negativities, where the actual happiness is experienced because of the absence of these negativities - and once you start experiencing these things for yourself, a change automatically happens in your mind. You live a better life. Everyone lives better life.

Question: Is Vipassana a religion?

Goenkaji: No. there is no cult or sect or religion involved in Vipassana. For example, people used to be under the impression that the world was flat. And Galileo said, "No, it is round and it rotates on its own axis. " This was so even before Galileo; it was so at the time of Galileo; it was so afterwards. People simply started accepting it: "Yes, it's true, it's round, it's rotating. " They didn't get converted to "Galileo-ism, " they didn't become "Galileo-ists. " Similarly, there is a law of gravity in nature. Newton discovered it. That doesn't mean he created a law; the law was always there. The law of relativity was there too; Einstein discovered it.

In the same way in Vipassana, there is no conversion to any religion or any sectarianism involved. An enlightened person discovers this law, that when we generate negativity nature punishes us. Everyone wants to be free of this misery, and look, nature has also given us a way. We can observe it. We can observe the mind and matter reactions going on inside, and we will find we are coming out of it. This is the truth, which was always there. This universal truth can be experienced by one and all, all can benefit from it. A Christian will continue to remain a Christian his whole life, a Hindu a Hindu, a Muslim a Muslim, Jew a Jew. But they will start living a better life.

This is all Vipassana wants. This is what attracted me to Vipassana. I came from a totally different tradition, but when I passed through one Vipassana course I found it is so scientific, so rational, so non-sectarian, universal, and so result-oriented. It gives results here and now: what more could anybody want? Nobody told me to become a Buddhist. My teacher said, "If you are a Hindu you remain a Hindu. I don't care. "

Doing Vipassana is like doing physical exercises to keep your body healthy. Here is a mental exercise to keep the mind healthy, which is much more important. The body may be very healthy, and yet if your mind is not healthy, you can't keep your body healthy. It will become unhealthy.

So o me this mental exercise is so scientific, so non-sectarian, so rational, so universal, that everyone should take advantage of it. It is not a foreign cult which is being imposed on a particular community, nothing like that. People are afraid, I understand, because many gurus have come from India and tried to exploit the people in different ways, financially and socially. People are afraid when they see, "Oh, another meditation teacher has come. Well, he may talk very fine, but ultimately he will try to exploit us and make us his salves or his or that, or we may lose our own religion and get converted. " That fear is natural, I can understand.

Question: how is the Vipassana organization set up to prevent the kinds of abuse - especially financial and sexual - that have plagued so many other spiritual organizations?

Goenkaji: financial abuse is impossible in this tradition, because anybody who teaches must have some other means of livelihood. This teaching can never become a profession or a means of livelihood for the teacher, or the assistants, or those who serve on courses. Anybody who gives any kind of assistance in this organization must have his or her own means of livelihood. So that nobody expects anything. And even is something is offered, they are not supposed to take it. They are giving this service because they have gotten so much from it - as in my case.

I got so much from this technique. I was a very rich, very angry person, and very unhappy. I had a lot of problems in my life. And this technique took me out of those problems as if I had a totally new birth. So because I feel so happy with this technique, I feel like sharing with others, because I know people are miserable in the same ways I was.

Rich or poor, everyone is living an egoistic, self-centered life, generating negativities, becoming miserable. If this technique is given to these people, they will become happy. So one feels like sharing it.

In the same way, there are those who have learned from me - thousands of them around the world - who feel like sharing. Some cannot serve, cannot give time, so they donate money. That donation is not like a fee for what they received. What they got, they got for free. They donate so that others can learn this technique. You see, this technique is such that it can only be given in a residential course - people have to come and stay for ten days. So there are boarding, lodging, and other expenses. But we do not charge people for those expenses - there is not a trace of commercialism involved. So where does the money come from? It comes from old students, who may feel that, "I can't personally go and serve people directly. But I am comfortable in many ways, so I will give five dollars, or ten dollars, or five thousands dollars, according to my capacity. " And this is how it works.

Now, there are other ways of exploiting people: one is socially. Those who start teaching may try to keep people under their clutches, like salves: "My guru say I must murder that fellow, " or "Whatever you have in your house, bring it and donate it here. " All such things are possible, if people become slaves. The Vipassana tradition is totally against that. Each individual is one's own master. There is no "gurudom" involved. You experience the practice yourself. If you find it is good for you, then accept it. Don't accept the word of a guru unless you have experienced the teaching and found it helpful to you and helpful to others.

A guru may say, "You are a very ordinary person, I am such a wise, enlightened person, so whatever I say, you must accept. " That is totally prohibited in Vipassana, each individual has to enlighten oneself, and then only should one accept the truth - not because the teacher says so. Not because the Buddha said so. Not because the Christ said so. Not because the scriptures said so. You experience, yourself, the truth, and you find that, "Yes, it is good for me, good for others. " Then you accept it.

Now with regard to sex, we have seen - and it is a very sorry state - that some people who are teaching spirituality (not all, but many of them) have had sexual relations with their own students. The whole teaching of Vipassana goes completely against that, because when a teacher gives the technique, gives Dhamma to anyone, then this person become like a son or a daughter of the teacher. A teacher must have that much love and that type of love and compassion, like the love of a father or a mother. How can one think of such madness as having sexual relations with one's students? Such a person is not fit to teach Dhamma. His mind is so full of passion, lust, impurity. How can he or she teach this - a technique for ridding the mind of impurities? Such a person is not allowed to become a full teacher. One is given the responsibility to teach only when one has developed to a stage where the mind is reasonably pure, and where one cannot have even a thought of sexual relations with a student. All assistant teachers are trained to develop these qualities and if anyone is found to have committed this kind of misconduct he or she will immediately be deauthorized from assistant teaching.

Question: you were speaking earlier of the laws of nature and, right now, many people are observing that nature itself is in trouble. Some are concerned that much of nature is, in fact, dying, and many parts of our natural world are experiencing great suffering. Many people feel a great urgency about responding to that suffering and sometimes they feel anger towards those people who are causing it. What do you recommend? How might they respond to the suffering that they see - both in nature and in human society - with equanimity?

Goenkaji: there are two aspects to this problem. One aspect is polluting the whole natural atmosphere, for example by different kinds of chemicals which harm the vegetation, the life of animals, birds and so on. Of course, any sensible, wise person must stop such pollution. If nature gets polluted, nature's harm is secondary. We are getting harmed. If the whole atmosphere becomes poisonous, how can people, who have mainly made it poisonous, live a healthy life? They have to live in this atmosphere, and they are spoiling it. So it's not that should be kind to nature - I would say, better be kind to themselves. We don't understand what we are doing. Nature may be polluted now and later on again may become fresh again - after, say, some hundreds of years. Meanwhile, what have we done to ourselves?

So people should think about themselves. I want everyone to be selfish, but selfish in a proper sense. Right now, people don't know here their real self-interest lies, and they harm themselves. People need to be compassionate toward themselves.

Chemical poisoning is one kind of pollution that is harming people, but another, bigger pollution, happens whenever our minds generate a defilement. That defilement is nothing but a vibration - an unhealthy vibration. It first defiles the atmosphere within ourselves, and then it starts permeating the atmosphere around us. If I become angry, I am the first victim of my anger. I am the first person who is harmed by it. The second victim will be affected a little later, but first, I'll be harmed. Then, after I am harmed by this anger, the vibration that goes out from me pollutes the whole atmosphere around me. If there are more and more angry people, how can you expect people to live peacefully in that atmosphere? It's impossible.

In a family, if there is one angry person, all the family members will become very unhappy. And if all of them are angry, it is a hell. What sort of life is that? But this is what is happening! People forget that when they generate negativity they are not only harming others, they are harming themselves. But if they learn Vipassana, this technique which nature have given us, they can come out of this pollution. See how peacefully they live now, how harmoniously! They are giving peace and harmony to the atmosphere. Anybody who comes in contact with that atmosphere will start feeling peace and harmony. So the pollution is, to me, is more dangerous. For ages we have been doing this. Saintly people who experience the truth, come and say, "Oh, no, don't do this. " But still we do. Because we don not understand what we are harming ourselves.

It is the same for the external pollution - people should understand that they are harming ourselves. A factory owner who is polluting the atmosphere with chemical gasses it not only harming others, he is harming himself also, living in that atmosphere. He can't have a separate atmosphere from himself. But one who is polluting the atmosphere at the mental level is suffering much more. The moment he starts generating anger, he is its first victim, and becomes a very miserable person.

So the atmosphere outside us is bad, as you say, and something has to be done. But when you said that people become angry when they see the pollution, that is not helpful. They have started producing another pollution with their anger. Anger cannot solve the problem. You must have compassion for other people. They are ignorant, they don't know what they are doing. We have to be firm and very stern, and very strong in opposing them, but deep inside there must be only love and compassion, no hatred. Hatred and anger cannot solve any problem.

Question: it strikes me that what you are saying is something that all political leaders should hear.

Goenkaji: Well, it starts from there. Every good or bad thing starts from the top and percolates through the society. If these people remain bad, the whole society has to suffer, and can't get the truth. But if the leaders start realizing that they are more or less owning the destiny of the whole human society, then they should live a better life, a good life, which can give a good example to the people - and example not just of power, but purity. Purity is the greatest power. If they learn how to keep their minds pure, they won't pollute the atmosphere around. And if they start doing that, it will certainly be so helpful to the whole human nation.

Question: you said Vipassana requires a ten-day residential course. But is it possible to learn Vipassana on one's own? Suppose one lives where there is no access to Vipassana teacher?

Goenkaji: I would very much like it if people could just listen to a few words about the technique, which is so simple. In about ten minutes I can explain what the technique is, and people can understand. They can tell you what they understand.

But we have tried this and it doesn't work. Because from birth, when we first opened our eyes and started looking outside, we have been giving all importance to things outside. Our whole life we have been extroverted. Now all of a sudden we want to change that habit and experience things inside. Just saying that doesn't work. We have to practice. One wishing to practice must be under a proper guide, who has himself practiced properly, and who can guide properly. And must be in an environment where there is least disturbance. You can't learn it in the normal "marketplace" environment with all the disturbances. Once you have learned then, yes, you go to live in the world outside, with all its distractions, and yet you can practice. But for learning the first time, the proper environment is essential.

I know it is so difficult for somebody to find ten days of life free, to leave all one's other responsibilities and come to learn this technique. But it is essential.

Question: what would you say to the businessman or the doctor who says, "I can't give ten days of my life" ?

Goenkaji: the same thing happened to me - I was such a busy businessman, and industrialist. For me to give ten days was unthinkable. I was a very angry person, a very egoistic person, living an ego-centered life, hating others and feeling that "I am the wisest and most intelligent person, because at this young age I have so much money, all the others are useless, that's why they can't earn money, they can't be successful in life. " That ego was so strong.

Intellectually, I started realizing that this was so–and that it was my own ego, my own impurity which was making me miserable. How to come out of it? I tried different ways. I practiced devotional songs and chanting, for years, but this didn't work. I tried at the intellectual level to understand all the scriptures, how all the negativities are so harmful and the positive feelings of the mind are so good. I kept on thinking, thinking, thinking. As with the chanting and devotional practices, this worked for some time only, but again I felt the same misery.

Then I contacted a wise person, Sayagyi U Ba Khin, who became my teacher. He said, "All these are games of the conscious level of the mind, the surface level, whereas your habit pattern lies at the root level. "

The root level is what we call the unconscious mind. It is very blind. It will not listen to any advice from the intellect. It will not listen to any advice. It will just keep on reacting. Whenever it feels something pleasant, it will react with craving, clinging. When it feels some thing unpleasant, it will react with aversion, hatred. That has become the habit pattern of this deepest level of the mind. And unless we change this deepest level, all other things that we are doing at the surface are only temporary. They cannot help. If the root is unhealthy, the whole tree is unhealthy.

So you must go to that root. If you don't make the whole journey from the surface level of your mind to the depth of your mind, how can you change your mind at the depth level? That requires something like a surgical operation of the mind - and that requires proper guidance, a proper environment, and some time. You don't just sit down, meditate, and immediately penetrate to the depth; it's not possible. You have to go layer by layer, layer by layer, and reach the place where the deep unconscious mind is blindly reacting, all the time reacting: anger, hatred, anger, hatred, craving, clinging. These are the habit patterns. You have to reach that stage, and it takes time.

So I understood. If I am sick, I have to go to a hospital. I can't help it. And that may take ten days, it may take ten months. I have to take these ten days and see what happens. And now, I find everybody is a sick person. Each one requires this particular treatment. Less or more, everyone requires it.

So ten days, initially, will look like too much time to spare. But once people pass through a course, they start saying, "These are the ten best days of my life, up till now, and, I feel, for the future also. They gave me a totally new life. " So people don't waste their then days. Once they pass through it, they feel it is wonderful.

Question: many people come to something like Vipassana because they feel they are suffering in some way. But what about the person who doesn't feel he or she is suffering, who feels quite happy and satisfied? What motivation would they have to do this work?

Goenkaji Generally speaking, we can say that Vipassana helps everyone. One may be at any level in life, but one cannot say "there is no room for any improvement in me. " One may be a very peaceful person, one may be a very intelligent person, very wise, very successful. There may be no obvious miseries in one's life. And yet, if one starts Vipassana, one starts improving - one becomes a much better person than before. Experience has shown this.

But frequently, when somebody says "there's no misery in me, " this is only a delusion. This person does not know how much agitation there is inside. One remains deluded, in this sensual pleasure, that sensual pleasure; this satisfaction, that satisfaction - this is only at the surface level. Deep, deep inside, there is so much dissatisfaction. So much discontent. So one must first realize that "I am a sick person, " and the must realize, "this is the cause of my sickness. " And then one must try to remove that cause, to come out of the sickness. So one must have at last his motivation - to become a better person than what I am.

Very successful business people have become better business people, very successful writers have become better writers, artists have become better artists - in every sphere, in whatever profession one is involved, we find this general improvement in the mundane field occurs after one has practiced Vipassana. Leave the supra-mundane aside for the moment - it doesn't matter. But in the mundane, worldly field, as you progress in Vipassana, you will get better result.

Question: let's turn back to the supra-mundane. What does the science of Vipassana teach about the supernatural or the paranormal?

Goenkaji: there are many experiences one might have which will be what are called "supernatural, " but we don't give importance to them. They are also natural; they are not unnatural. Nothing is extraordinary. But if one aims for some kind of supernatural experience, then the whole purpose of Vipassana is lost. The purpose of Vipassana is to purify the mind, to live a good life. You may experience some supernatural powers, and yet if your mind remains full of anger, hatred, ill will, animosity, then what's the use of this supernatural power? It will increase your ego all the more: "Look, I am now such a big yogi because I can do this thing the others cannot do. " This is madness; it doesn't help. So we don't give importance to these experiences.

Such experiences do come. On the path, the mind gets purer and purer, and a pure mind becomes very powerful. But it is powerful in a positive way. And impure mind, by certain mental exercises, can also become powerful - but that is an impure mind. It will harm itself, it will harm others. So purity of the mind is the aim of Vipassana; power is secondary, a by-product.

Question: I heard a famous person speak recently someone who was obviously very insightful, very wise, very intelligent, very brilliant - but also, to my perception, very egoistic, in a way that seemed potentially dangerous to that person and to others. How do you recommend responding to a person like that?

Goenkaji: you see, if you simply say to that person, "Look, you are a very wise person, but to me it seems that you are also an egoistic person, " that won't help. This person will become more egoistic: "what do you know? You are a mad fellow. You don't know that I am free from ego. " That's what this person will say.

The best thing is to try to purify oneself first. With a pure mind, whatever you say will be very effective. When the words come from a pious-minded person, even this full-of-ego person will start thinking, "Yes, perhaps this is correct. Now let me examine this. There must be something wrong in me. "

But when you say, with any kind of anger or hatred, "Oh, this fellow talks as if he is a very wise person, but he's really a mad fellow" - when even the volition carries some hatred - the words will carry no meaning. No purpose will be served, because the vibration of anger or hatred will go with them. When you have hatred, that vibration of hatred will go and touch this person and he will become agitated; he won't like it. But if a vibration of love goes with the same words, you will find a big change happening.

Everyone who wants to help others to come out of misery, or come out of their defects, must first come out of that particular defect oneself. A lame person cannot support another lame person. A blind person cannot show the path to another blind person. Vipassana helps you first become a healthy person yourself, and then automatically you will start helping others to become healthy.

Question: is Vipassana the only way to that purity?

Goenkaji: well, what do you mean by the "only way" ? We have no attachment to the word "Vipassana. " What we say is, the only way to become a healthy person is to change the habit pattern of one's mind at the root level. And the root level of the mind is such that it remains constantly in contact with the body sensations, day and night. What we call the "unconscious mind" is day and night feeling sensations in the body and reacting to these sensations. If it feels pleasant sensation, it will start craving, clinging. If it feels unpleasant sensation, it will start hating, it will have aversion. That has become our mental habit pattern.

People say that we can change our mind by this technique or that technique. And, to a certain extent, these techniques do work. But if these techniques ignore the sensations on the body, that means they are not going to the depth of the mind.

So you don't have to call it Vipassana - we have no attachment to this name. But people who work with the bodily sensations, training the mind not to react to the sensations, are working at the root level. This is the science, the law of nature I have been speaking about.

Mind and matter are completely interrelated at the depth level, and they keep reacting to each other. When anger is generated, something starts happening at the physical level. A biochemical reaction starts. When you generate anger, there is a secretion of a particular type of biochemistry, which starts flowing with the stream of blood. And because of that particular biochemistry which has started flowing, there is a very unpleasant sensation. That chemistry started because of anger. So naturally it is very unpleasant. And when this very unpleasant is there, our deep unconscious mind starts reacting with more anger. The more anger, the more this particular flow of biochemical. More biochemical flow, more anger. A vicious circle has started. Vipassana helps us to interrupt that vicious cycle. A biochemical reaction starts; Vipassana teaches us to observe it. Without reacting, we just observe. This is pure science. If people don't want to call it Vipassana, they can call it by any other name, we don't mind. But we must work at the depth of the mind.

Question: I read that you've said that Buddhism has lost what the Buddha taught, which is the Dhamma, the Vipassana technique. What is your opinion of the Christian tradition? Was Jesus teaching something similar?

Goenkaji: every saintly person becomes a saintly person because he or she has done something to purify the mind. There is no magic, no miracle. Such things were imposed later on. A person is a good person because one has purified the mind. And to purify the mind one must go to the depth of the mind and take out the impurities. This is what Jesus kept teaching to people.

Now, in every tradition, whether Christian or Jewish or Hindu or Jain or Muslim, what we call the founders of these religions were saintly people. They were not interested in fighting others in the name of religion - that started only much later. They taught a way to purify the mind, and that was lost everywhere. Nobody is practicing this. One may call oneself a Buddhist, but one is not practicing the technique taught by Buddha. It is the same with Hindus, the same with Christians, the same everywhere.

Why do I say this? Because people come to the Vipassana technique from all communities, from all religions. A large number of Christian nuns and priests have come, hundreds of them, and they keep coming. And when they pass through this, they say, "Now we understand what Jesus Christ taught. " They learn Vipassana, and they say "Now, through this practice, we understand. We did not properly understand the words of Christ. " You see, Jesus was a practitioner. He was talking about his experience. And unless we have that experience, we can't understand him. The same thing is said by Muslims when they pass through Vipassana, the same thing by Hindus, the same thing by Buddhists. Truth is truth. If one remains at the intellectual level, as I said at the beginning, or devotional level, then the truth differs from person to person. But at the level of experience, the truth is always the same - it makes no difference who practices it.

Question: we are, of course, working at the intellectual level here, which is inevitable for the moment. But could you explain more about the body being vibrational? And is one always responsible for the agitation in one's own body, or is one susceptible to the vibrations coming from someone else?

Goenkaji: whatever vibration comes from outside, it will certainly try to affect you. But if you are your own master inside, then your vibration will be so strong that you will start helping and purifying the vibration outside. If I am a weak person, anything will try to overpower me. If agitation is coming, and I am a weak person, I'll succumb to that. If I am a strong person, I don't mind any kind of thing coming any way - I generate my vibration, which is a vibration of love, compassion, goodwill, stability, equanimity, and I'm not harmed. So that's why we say in Vipassana that one hundred percent of the cause of our misery is within ourselves, not outside. One hundred percent of the cause of our happiness is within ourselves, not outside. We are our own masters. Develop that mastery of yourself and you will become a happy person.

Question: some people would feel that they might be giving up some of the joy in life to also be giving up the participation in that agitation.

Goenkaji: No. life will be so joyful! Say you have enjoyed a particular type of life, having this sensual pleasure, that sensual pleasure. You say this is very joyful. But once you experience the joy of a balance and peaceful mind, and you compare the two, you will find there is no comparison. The difference is like the difference between light and darkness, it is so great. One feels so happy: "Look, I have come out of it. " One does not become like a vegetable, with no emotion in one's life. No, one's life is full of joy, full of life. Life becomes so bright and so good, so life-full. It is not lifeless.

But to the person who has not experienced this, it looks like illusion - "Oh, such peace of mind is not possible. Enjoying things at the sensual level is more important. " It's not that after learning Vipassana we will run away from the sensual pleasures - but there will be no attachment to them. If we miss it, we miss it - still we are happy. If we get it, we get it - still we are content. Ordinarily, when you miss it, you will feel so depressed. With this technique, that depression will go away, so that you really are happy.

Question: well, it may be an illusion, but I am certainly enjoying this interview.

Goenkaji: find ten days to learn this technique and you will enjoy the real joy.

Question: let me ask you about suffering. What about children who are in great physical pain? They have no control over their suffering.

Goenkaji: parents are responsible for the joy, happiness, or misery of the child, at the initial stage. They need to give them a good atmosphere. If the parents are agitated all the time, quarreling, feeling anger, hatred, this that, then the whole atmosphere of the family is such that the child cannot experience what real happiness is.

At present, there are so many different kinds of exploitation going on, so people are hesitant about every kind of mediation, whatever it is. But in a few years time, when more and more people start experiencing it, then this will become a part of the life of the society. Now we have our schools, colleges, gymnasiums, hospitals - these are necessary for the society. In the same way Vipassana centers will become necessary for the society. The children will go to these centers - not necessarily for ten days. They will just start by observing their respiration for few minutes. It will become part of their teaching in the school.

In India, there is a school period which is called P.T. , "physical training. " I say, why not also have "M.T. , " a few minutes of mental training? Ten minutes is enough, and the whole day works much better. Some of the schools have started this and are getting very good results. This will become very popular; it is bound to happen. Some people take it as a religion, a cult, or a dogma, so naturally there is resentment and opposition. But Vipassana should only be taken as pure science, the science of mind and matter, and a pure exercise for the mind to keep it healthy. What could be the objection? And it is so result-oriented, because it starts giving results here and now. People will start accepting this.

There are always initial difficulties - when a Vipassana center is started, the neighbors might say, "Oh, who are these people, what are they going to do here? " But after one, two, three years, they find it is something so good, it helps them also, some of them will come and participate, and the word will start spreading. It has happened this way at every center. The initial year, there is a little turmoil. The second and third year, the neighbors start cooperation. It's bound to spread.

Question: since there are still not very many centers, and so many people in the world who can't get to one, it must be difficult to choose where to make this training available. Most of the new centers are being created in the west. Is the strategy to have it spread first in the places where people already have enough to eat and can take care of themselves in that way?

Goenkaji: No. I don't say that only such people can come, because of my experience in India where there is so much of poverty. Any ordinary, intelligent person will understand that first the stomach must be filled. A person with an empty stomach, how can he meditate? But that person also needs Vipassana, as much as a very rich person. To me, they are equally miserable.

Now, for the person who does not get even enough to fill the stomach one time during the day, this is so difficult. If that person comes to a course, for those then days, at least, he is worried less about food. That person gets free food, free lodging, everything required, much better than he gets in his hut outside. And then he learns Vipassana. Going back out, he is able to face his difficulties much better. Of course, he has difficulties. I say the rich person has got more difficulties, but people never understand that.

In India, 25% or 30% of the people coming to the Vipassana courses live below the poverty line. Even people who sometimes go all day without eating, they come. After then ten days, their family members come sometimes and thank us. This person may have no money, but whatever money he does earn, even a small amount, he spends on alcohol or gambling, because he thinks this is the only way to come out of misery: "If I have some alcohol, I will forge the misery; by gambling, I might earn more. " So these two addictions are there even with the poorest people in India. After just one or two courses, they are freed from these unwholesome habits. Automatically. Nobody tells them, "Going back home, you should not take alcohol. " Nobody tells them, "Going back home, don't gamble. " All that addiction is addiction towards body sensations. And once they have learned to observe body sensations, they come out of these addictions.

Vipassana has easily freed people from their addiction to drugs or alcohol, because all addiction is to body sensation. It looks as if one is addicted to alcohol, but no - one is addicted to the sensation that is created by taking alcohol, and one wants that sensation again and again. Once has to take something to generate that sensation. Now through Vipassana, one learns that when the sensation comes, once simply observes. I am not reacting, so my attachment to it goes away.

So those people who are so poor, they start getting benefited even at the material level. Whatever they earn they now use for their family, for themselves. They have started living a better life. Previously they were not earning because of their agitated mind, because of the alcohol, because of the gambling. Now their mind is steadier, and they start earning much more. Whatever work they do, they get better results. So their earning increases, and their expenditure goes down. Materially, they are becoming better. These results are happening everywhere.

If a rich person who is very self-centered practices Vipassana, the self-centered nature goes away. That person realizes, "All this money that I am earning or that I have, why is it for me alone? It has come from the society. Of course it should be used for my maintenance or the maintenance of those who depend on me. Certainly I am a householder, I am not a monk or a nun. But it should also be used for the society, for the good of others. " This person was just exploiting the society by grabbing money, legally or illegally, while other people were suffering. Now this person becomes so generous, for the good of others, and comes out of suffering in that way. Because this person was himself suffering. When he comes out of it, his accumulation is used for the good of others - that is also natural law. There is no magic to changing the society, no miracle required. Things have gone so bad, let them come out in a proper way. They will, because Vipassana has started creating results.

Question: Is it possible to fail at Vipassana?

Goenkaji: Yes - if you don't work as your guide asks you to work. For ten days you are to leave behind everything else that you are practicing. You come for ten days to learn a very particular technique, a unique technique, which has its own special features. It takes you to the depth of the mind. You start from the surface, and go to the depth - a surgical operation. In the past, you might have been doing some other kind of meditation, where verbalization was involved, or visualization, or some kind of devotional practice, or some intellectual game, or some imagination. If you want to do any or all of these things while doing Vipassana, there will be a conflict inside.

The whole Vipassana technique wants you to go to the depth of the mind and observe the natural vibrations that are happening there, from moment to moment. If you are creating certain vibrations by your intellectual thoughts, or by your emotion, or by some verbalization at the surface level of the mind, and you want to go to the depth, there is a conflict. So without condemning what you were doing in the past, the teacher will say, "Leave that aside, and give this technique a trial for ten days. After ten days, you are your own master - if you don't like it, throw it away. If you like it, accept. But don't mix those two during these ten days. " Very rarely, if somebody mixes things in that way, then there is difficulty. But otherwise, there is no possibility of getting into difficulty. And there's no possibility of failure. When you say "failure" it means not getting anything. There is not a single case where somebody has said, "I didn't get anything. " One may get less or one may get more, according to what effort one has given to the technique. But a definite result is assured, there is no question.

Question: do all sensations have a purpose, or are some experiences meaningless? In practicing Vipassana, do you find that everything that happens to us has a purpose, a meaning?

Goenkaji: there is a purpose - but if you don't know what the purpose is, every sensation that arises is giving you this lesson: "Look, I am impermanent. I am coming to pass away. " Don't get agitated because of it. Don't get overwhelmed because of it. You learn. Make this sensation into a tool, to change you habit pattern. In that way, all experiences are very purposeful.

If we don't know what the purpose is, then we get overwhelmed, and we keep on reacting, reacting. We make ourselves worse. This is our ignorance. The purpose of the vibration is good, to give us a warning. I am angry, and vibration has started, because of that anger. That is a warning to me: "Look, don't be angry, otherwise you experience this, and this will multiply. " Now, if I don't take any interest in the warning, I will harm myself. But a very good purpose is there, so you start observing it: "Well, look, a sensation has come because of my anger, now let me see how long it lasts. " I have made it a tool to come out of my anger.

Question: Is there anything you want to emphasize about Vipassana?

Goenkaji: Vipassana is nothing but an art of living. It should not be mixed with any religion, any dogma, any philosophy, any belief. All should be left aside. Vipassana is a code of conduct, a pure way for living a good life, a healthy life. It is good for oneself, and good for others. If Vipassana is taken that way - and that's the proper way to understand Vipassana - it will be very helpful.

But if it is seen with a colored lens - "Look, another religion has come, this is Buddhism , or this or that" - then one loses. Vipassana does not lose anything, those who are practicing Vipassana don't lose anything - but those who have such colored lenses will lose. Vipassana should be taken as a science, a pure science of mind and matter which starts at a very apparent, gross level, but takes us to much deeper and subtler levels, even to a level which is pure mind and matter. That is the important thing, and it is a message for everybody. That's why it is not limited to any particular community, any particular religion, or any particular country.It is for all.

Question: I've enjoyed reading the teaching stories in your books. Would you close this interview with a story?

Goenkaji: There is a story about a saint, sitting at the band of the river. He sees a scorpion floating by, and he knows the scorpion will drown in the water. He wants to save the scorpion, but he finds there is nothing to use to take it out. So because he is a saint, he puts his hand in the water, and takes it out. He has love and compassion for the scorpion. But as he lifts it out, the scorpion stings him and injects him with poison, and again falls into the water. Again he helps the scorpion. Somebody who is watching says, "What are you doing? You know that the scorpion will sting you, and yet you keep on doing that. " "This stinging is the habit pattern of the scorpion, and my habit pattern is to serve. Why should I change my habit pattern? "

The job of the Vipassana meditator is to serve, to help, whatever the repercussions may be. And the repercussions will, ultimately, always be good.